- This conversation is in reference to HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 23:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I'm somewhat troubled by your decision to delete this article, on a couple of grounds. First, there was still an discussion going on, which I feel should have been allowed to run its course. Second, the reason you cite for deletion is that the article is "indiscriminate" but it's pretty clear that most of the editors who cited this as a reason for deletion either don't actually understand this particular clause of WP:NOT or are misapplying it in this case. I would like to ask that you reinstate the article and the AfD to allow further discussion; if the consensus at the end of that discussion is deletion then I won't object, but at present that's not where we're at. SP-KP 22:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
- Articles are debated for up to five days, after which the deletion process proceeds based on Wikipedia community consensus. I judged the consensus as a delete. WP:NOT does list certain things that are clearly indiscriminate, but it is not a complete list. We user debate and consensus to determine in those cases. The only conversations that were not one sided have ended days ago. I am going to leave it.
- You are welcome to submit it to WP:DRV if you think this is out of process. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 23:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Could I come back to you on a few things here, please:
- I would be interested in understanding why you felt the consensus was to delete
- Could you point me at somewhere within Wikipedia policy / guidance which states that the list of items at WP:NOT does not constitute the complete list of categories of indiscriminate article? I've looked for it several times before, and not found it.
- What length of time do you feel is appropriate to allow editors to respond to questions seeking clarification on their views?
SP-KP 11:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- The reason I felt the consensus was to delete is that most people wanted it deleted, and people who wanted it kept were employing arguments like This article is similar to ones allowed and do not take into account the argument that this is better served as a category.
- From WP:NOT
- While there is a continuing debate about the encyclopedic merits of several classes of entries, current consensus is that Wikipedia articles are not simply...
- This means that while the items on the list are indiscriminate, that consensus is to determine what other classes of entries qualify as indiscriminate. Thus the AfD, a mechanism to find consensus when policy is not clear cut.
- As I said before Articles are debated for up to five days, after which the deletion process proceeds based on Wikipedia community consensus. So, that would be the length of time I feel is appropriate to allow editors to respond to questions.
- Once again I welcome you to submit this to WP:DRV. I think I closed it well. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 15:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi. Thanks for those replies. I won't be submitting this to DRV, as I do not believe the problem is process related - I agree with you that you have followed process here. The issues here, I feel, are your understanding of Wikipedia policy & process and the judgment you made as a result of that (and possibly the degree of care taken in making that judgment, although I can't be certain about this last point). If you feel that you would like more detail regarding these criticisms, in order to learn and improve, I'd be happy to discuss further. I'll let the deletion of this particular article drop though, as I think that reinstating the content is better done through the establishment of a consensus between interested parties on how it can be reinstated in a deletion-proof way, away from the post-AfD processes. All the best. SP-KP 18:02, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- Sure, I even made a section for it below. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 18:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Constructive criticism
I always like constructive criticism, go for it! HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 18:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- OK, I won't do this all in one go though, as I need to go get some food! My first piece of feedback is that I think you misinterpret what WP:NOT is saying, and as a result have been swayed into making a decision which appears correct but under a different interpretation is less clear-cut. We both agree that the eight community-agreed indisciminate categories of articles should be deleted. If you like, these are the eight "obvious" unencyclopaedic categories, and as you say they can't cover everything that will ever get deleted as unencyclopaedic. It is quite possible (personally I think it is quite likely) that there are further categories of article (although they would likely be more narrowly defined) that we will discover as the encyclopaedia matures further. AfD is probably a good place to detect these extra categories if we do that carefully ... i.e. people will express reasons why other article categories ahould be regarded as unencyclopaedic, others will give reasons why they shouldn't be, and community consenus will hopefully (eventually) establish itself as patterns emerge over time in deletion discussions. All good, constructive, collaborative stuff. What's happened here is very different. Lots of editors have just "voted" to deem this an unencyclopaedic article, either without a reason, or by citing the indisciminate info clause as a reason, but in error. As an admin in the AfD process, it's very tempting to defer to the majority view, but that's not what I feel you should be doing, or what community consensus says if I understand it correctly. In cases like these, my recommendation would be that you almost need to completely filter out the "me too" contributions and look at what is happening in the meat of the discussion. It may well be that in this case, the end result would still have been consensus to delete, but the discussion hadn't reached that point. More later. SP-KP 18:33, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I must disagree about the lack of reasoning on the part of those claiming it was indiscriminate, many of the delete opinions gave clear reasoning such as Serpent's Choice, Warrens, and Colin. I also think the casting your opinion by saying you agree with another person's reasoning is valid contribution lending weight to that argument.
The main problem here is that determining if something is indiscriminate is an arbitrary process. Of course the value of the arguments needs to be taken into account, which is how I found consensus to delete. A few of the delete's lack foundation, but so to some of the few keeps.
I don't mean to linger on this one AfD, I know you are simply using it as an example case for a more general discussion. Judging consensus is tricky, especially when WP:NOT is involved. All through WP:NOT it points out the arbitrary nature of the rules and says that consensus must be relied on. One cannot provide evidence to show if something is indiscriminate or not, so such debates are essentially opinion based.
A good question is, is this the type of article you would expect in an encyclopedia? The consensus seems to be no in this case. Were the situation different I would certainly act accordingly. I hope this has addressed your concerns, or perhaps I just sidestepped them? Let me know, thanks for the input. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 18:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)